Sofia Swanson is Leaving a Donut-Sized Hole in My NYC

Carrie Bradshaw’s New York was all Manolos and Cafeteria. Patti Smith’s was formed in the shape of Robert Mapplethorpe and Café 'Ino. And my New York was underscored by Sofia Swanson’s Saturday Donuts at Wildair. 

“Hilarious, embarrassing, frankly unbelievable,” I’m sure more than a few of you are saying to yourself now. How could a simple confection created almost 180 years ago be such a touchstone for my time in the most exciting city in the world? To which I must respond: I’m sorry you never got to try one. 

Ask a New Yorker what their death row meal is, and a certain dish from a certain restaurant will inevitably make its way into the offering. The older the New Yorker, the more likely that dish exists only in their memory and not a menu anymore. 

When I hear Rebecca talk lovingly about the Taro Fries from An Choi, I can’t help but grow flush with jealousy. You’re always just missing the best time in New York. You’re always just missing the best this or the best that. So when I got the chance to memorialize my friend’s final day of slinging desserts to the debutantes and degenerates of Orchard Street, it was the opportunity of a lifetime.

Aaron: Are you back in Chicago?

Sofia: No, not yet. I'm actually going after Christmas, right on Thursday.

Aaron: Okay, so she's gonna be in the big city for Christmas!

Sofia: Yeah, I'm right here.

Aaron: Do you feel over or underrepresented by The Bear being about a chef from Chicago?

Sofia: Oh my god hahaha. Ummm under, I guess? I don't know, wait, is that one of your questions?

Aaron: No, but we can keep it in!

Sofia: I'm like, “I can't speak on the Bear…”

Aaron: You're like my, “there's actually a lot of my professional career at stake if I make a comment.”

Sofia: Wait, it's actually so crazy because last time I was home, I tried to go to Margie's, this ice cream place, that has never been busy ever. But it was in the bear for like, 30 seconds, literally a montage of Ayo Edebiri eating a sundae. And now you can't go in there. It's packed.

Aaron: Yes! Ahh it's so hard because there's a little Italian restaurant [Hyacinth, we love you] right by us in St. Paul and they're always busy, which I’m so glad that this little business is just humming along and has all their bookings full, but at the same time I wish I could walk in there sometimes — we're fighting for a seat when we get in at open. They always tell us, “you can sit at the bar and you have 25 minutes!” We're always come go for a little drink and appetizer so it’s all good.

Sofia: Margie's is a hundred years old. I mean, I'm happy for them, but they didn’t it.

Aaron: You’re like, “Guys, this shit has been around.” And the weirdest part is that it's probably people from Chicago. It's probably not people visiting Chicago, realistically. I don't think many people are making pilgrimages to go to spots that are in the Bear. But maybe we're wrong, maybe we're wrong.

Sofia: My friends call it like the bear effect. Everywhere that was in the bear is now is so popped off.

Aaron: It's so interesting to me that part of art today — like every single person that I interview talks about social media — but it is super interesting, even when we were in Paris, the amount of places where it's like, oh, they got big on TikTok then blew up. We went to this really good ice cream wine bar, I forget the name.

Sofia: Folderol?

Aaron: Yes, I think that’s it. And they had so many signs that were like, “stop making TikToks in here! No phones! Some places they straight up ban phones because people were stopping [service] and it's, you know, it's Paris, super tight quarters. It's like New York, just move the out of the way!

Sofia: Yeah, it is so interesting, TikTok in particular.

Aaron: Yeah, what bakeries pop off, who gets popular, the whole thing. It’s so interesting how effective of a marketing tool it can be.

Sofia: It's almost like you have to be on there.

Aaron: One of the things that I wanted to ask about was branding yourself as a chef, because that's gotta feel sorta odd.

Sofia: Oh my god, it's so stressful. At least to me personally. But yeah, you have to.

Aaron: And what pushed you to start Swans?

Sofia: I was having a crisis about whether to just use my name because I already have a bigger following of people who know Wildair on my normal Instagram. But then I was like, wait, I don't know. It just feels nice to have like something separate from yourself.

Aaron: And do you think that's just a level of protection, so to speak? It's not your person, right? It's this sort of lightly eponymous brand.

Sofia: If I ever wanted to like transition it into say some sort of brick and mortar, you kind of have to have a brand. Or if I wanted to do more of an events route and have a company in that way — it's just so boring to be Sophia Swanson Incorporated, you know?

Aaron: So what is Swans in its current form?

Sofia: That's a great question. And it's like still kind of in the works to me. But right now, I think it's just going to be what I use for pop-ups and probably mostly bakery-related. I'll definitely do some dinner stuff, too.

Aaron: Do you ever feel boxed in by the nomenclature of being a chef? You know, there's the pastry chef, and there's the sous chef, and there's all these different chefs. Do you feel boxed in by the fact that you are Wildair’s pastry chef specifically?

Sofia: I definitely used to. I don't so much anymore. Maybe just because that's not my full-time job anymore. Yeah, but it is a weird thing in kitchens where — I mean, nowadays, people don't really go to culinary school like they used to, and you can just learn on the job, which is obviously what I did — but I don't know, there is a weird hierarchy. Like if you never worked on the line, but you're cooking savory food, it can almost feel kind of illegitimate. So, I definitely had a crisis about that. But it's not like I'm in a different space while they're prepping and cooking, so I feel like I absorbed a lot through that. But yeah, I don't know, I think I used to feel very [isolated] — especially because I didn't work service and my hours were so different. Pastry chef is an isolating job in a way. You're coming in really, really early.

Aaron: Dude, even when we took the photos, nobody else was in. No other person came in until probably 11.

Sofia: I kind of love that, but when it comes to hangout time, it's like, oh wait, you guys are all hanging out after service, but I'm not going to come back.

Aaron: Gone. Yeah. I’m Gonezo. I’m Gonezo Alonzo.

Sofia: I'm gone!

Aaron: Do you think it is isolating from a social standpoint, being a pastry chef? One thing I've always noticed being around kitchens is there is such a social sort of, not hierarchy, [the word I was trying to think of was structure] that really bonds you when you work together in a restaurant. Everybody I know who worked in service would say, “I would go to war for those people!” Was that weird to be just outside of that? Having come in early and then leave early, obviously.

Sofia: A little bit, but I mean, I made a lot of friends still because, you know, you still do spend hours together.

But yeah, it is a bit of a weird position, especially because you're in this position of management, almost. Where you need to trust people when you're not there to do things the way you would do them. And that can get a bit weird when you're friends.

Aaron: Going back to talking about how you didn't go to culinary school… how the hell did you graduate from a college in California. I would presume not with a background in cooking, I have no idea what you graduated with! What [degree] did you graduate with?!

Sofia: laughing Ancient Greek.

Aaron: Oh my god, how do you feel about the news that Christopher Nolan is making a new Odyssey?

Sofia: Oh my god, I didn't know. You're telling me right now.

Aaron: Wow, okay, live spill. Well, he is; he is redoing the Odyssey.

Sofia: I mean, I guess it's about time. It's, I'm kind of surprised no one's done that.

Aaron: I know. I feel like we've Romeo and Juliet-ed every Shakespeare play to modernize it.

Sofia: They're moving into Greece!

Aaron: They're moving into Greece!

Sofia: They said we got a new Gladiator, the Roman.

Aaron: We're not doing any fresh IP. We're bringing it back and we're going as far back as Homer. Well, what's your favorite Greek myth, then?

Sofia: I like the Iliad. I like Ajax. It's hard for me to tap back into now.

Aaron: Wait, which one is Ajax?

Sofia: Ajax is what I wrote my thesis on that I literally couldn't even describe to you because I can't remember but it's a play and he's a prince and there's drama.

Aaron: Trust me, there's a lot of shit going on. If I know anything about Greek mythology, there's some shit going on. I'm a big fan of Eurydice and Orpheus. I don't know if you've seen Portrait of a Lady on Fire, but oh my god. It really do be like that. Like sometimes you just can't help it. If that was me and my girlfriend. I’m looking back.

So you graduate from California with a Greek degree and you think hmm great time to move across the country to New York. How does that happen?

Sofia: Well, no. Okay. Maybe there's a year you don't even know about.

Aaron: No, I need to uncover the lore. That's why I'm here. To uncover the lore.

Sofia: I had a job lined up at a gallery in LA. I thought I was going to go to grad school for museum curation.

Aaron: Okay, a natural path for somebody with an ancient Greek degree.

Sofia: Yeah, and then it was COVID, so it got super canceled, that job. And my boyfriend at the time was from Seattle. And we had been going up there a lot. And I was like, when would I ever like in Seattle otherwise? So we moved to Seattle.

Aaron: This is like the mythical lore reveal.

Sofia: Yeah, this is my secret year.

Aaron: Was this your year of rest and relaxation?

Sofia: This was my year of rest and relaxation, except that when we got there — I wasn't even too concerned with if I would ever use my degree? Cause it was fun for me to study. I just wanted to get a job that was going to be fun or something I would enjoy that wouldn't feel so tedious. I was like, I like baking; I guess I'll just try to get a job at a bakery for my weird COVID year.

Sofia: And I did, but it was not quite what I thought it was going to be. It was this really great bakery in Seattle called Coyle’s Bake Shop. Kind of English vibes. Small business, but really popular, really popular like a busy place. And they hired me as dish prep, which I didn't know what that meant at the time. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's doing the dishes. It was a dishwasher. I was a dishwasher. In my brain I thought it meant like prep the dishes. Yeah. Like you're prepping the dishes. Yeah, but no, it was doing them. Which like, duh.

Aaron: You’re like, “Oh, I'm here to prep the dishes.” And they're like, sweet. That shit's 165 degrees. Throw some gloves on before you scald yourself.

Sofia: Yeah, it was funny. But what's also funny is I was such a good dishwasher that I feel like they did not want me to leave.

Aaron: Do you ever have the urge? Does it ever call you back? Cause you were, obviously, you have to be as a chef, but you were on top of your shit with the dishes when we were in the kitchen. Those dishes were immediately going in the sink and getting washed.

Sofia: Yeah well, it's interesting because, I mean, obviously that place had a dishwasher, it was me. But also they taught me a lot, and I did do a lot of baking. It was like a really good deal. Because then, when I moved to New York, I was like, I worked at a bakery already; I know what I'm doing. Which was, for sure, a little bit of a lie. Wildair never had a dishwasher, they have a dishwasher that comes for service. You do all your own dishes. I hate having things just sit around in there.

Aaron: That's so interesting. Oh, cool. Well, I bet that was really good on the resume as well then.

Sofia: Yeah, well, I didn't put the dish part on my resume.

Aaron: But I bet they were really freaking impressed when you got there.

Sofia: Yeah, they were like, she knows how to do the dishes.

Aaron: We could learn a thing or two from her! So, that chapter is now closed, and this new one is starting. How does that feel? Because it was your first job in New York, right?

Sofia: No!

Aaron: Oh my god. So there was another bakery in between?? At least it was the most prominent chapter.

Sofia: The other place I worked is called Winner. Do you know Winner?

Aaron: Mm hmm Yeah

Sofia: I worked at Winner for a year.

Aaron: And then you make this step.

Sofia: Yeah, Wildair was my first restaurant job. Winner was a little bit. They had a restaurant, but it was mostly pastry or bakery production. I was just talking about this yesterday. I don't know if I'll work at another restaurant in the way that I was again.

Aaron: And why is that?

Sofia: I think it's hard for me because it feels more legitimized in the cooking community to be employed at a restaurant that has a name and, you know, you make a pastry program and build it up that way is definitely a route to some sort of success. But restaurants aren't doing well; there's no money in it; the hours suck. Even if you love what you're making, part of it is just so thankless.

Aaron: Oh, 100 percent.

Sofia: And it’s hard to justify that when I make my rent in a day of work Freelancing. Yeah, it's like, why?

Aaron: I think that every artist's dream is to do their own thing and really have full creative vision.

And I would assume that is something that you naturally sacrifice when you work under the lineage of a restaurant that already has its own established name, its own established brand, things like that. So I totally get that.

Sofia: Even if you're technically in charge, which I feel like I was at Wild Air, you still have to deal with the owners, and then you have to deal with like the chefs, and you're always in this mediating position that is really draining. And you're also never off. I would dream about it. I would think about it all the time. I would have to answer any call or any text at any time of day.

Aaron: It is hard. When you really commit and fully put yourself into a job, it is like that. It is 24/7. The jobs that I've found that are the easiest on my mental health are the ones where I finish my work, and now I'm going home. We always talk about those closing-the-laptop jobs. Writing is a lot more fake than pastry work is, too.

Sofia: No, I think burnout is real in any sense.

Aaron: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, was there anything from a professional standpoint that you feel you're really taking away from this experience?

Sofia: Yeah, now I have a lot of real experience managing people, which I didn't have before, and it’s really helpful in terms of delegating stuff. Because I don't know if you know this about me, but I'm a bit of a freak perfectionist and I'm like never happy with what I'm doing entirely. So it’s a good skill to have to be able to delegate.

Aaron: Yeah, no, it absolutely is. It's trust! Trust and managing relationships in any workplace is such a really hard and volatile thing. It can turn the tides of a workplace so easily if you disrupt that balance of emotions and social dynamics.

Sofia: Yeah, knowing how to create a healthy culture where people respect you because in kitchens you never know what you're getting. Like, are you getting someone who's gonna like scream at you or someone’s that nice? There's a lot of different management styles. Some are more acceptable than others.

Aaron: And I feel like that [yelling style of management] was more acceptable 30 years ago. Where you could just sort of be like my way or the highway. And a lot of people are waking up to that and asking why. Why does it have to be like that?

Sofia: You'd be surprised at how many people still have been working in kitchens for 10 years, and they had that happen to them when they were starting, and they can’t turn it off even though it's not chill anymore.

Aaron: It's so cyclical in that way. And I think we're seeing that sort of behavior phased out in this generation across the board. People are waking up and asking why I would work at a job where I'm getting screamed at. At the end of the day we're writing press releases, or we're making desserts, or things along those lines.

Sofia: When you put it that way, it's so funny. We're making desserts. It's not that big a deal.

Aaron: When people would freak out in, in agencies, it'd be like, “This is marketing, get a grip!” It's so funny to me, looking back. But what was your favorite donut? I feel like the collabs were so fun. Did you have a favorite, and did you have a most frustrating?

Sofia: I have both, for sure. I have a couple of favorites. I think my favorite collab was Danny Bowien. He is just the nicest man in the world. He brought us a big box of Korean sweets. He made rice and kimchi for us. And made us this little snack plate. Usually, the guests will come, and maybe they'll come and pick up donuts, but they're not really there. They're not as involved. We make everything and it's just kind of their idea. But he was so sweet, and his donut was so good.

Aaron: What was it?

Sofia: I think it was a banana hazelnut chocolate with crispy feuilletine, which are just crispy pastry bits. Oh and coffee! Banana Hazelnut Coffee Chocolate. It was really good. And then my other favorite is Christopher Abbott because he always does the same one, which is yuzu creamsicle. And he's just so cute.

Aaron: Oh yeah, that one was a banger. And the most frustrating?

Sofia: The most frustrating… hmm, I'm trying to think. There's definitely been some flavors I didn't understand, which I guess is frustrating to make because it doesn't feel like a representation of myself.

Aaron: So they were bringing the flavor to the table a lot of the time?

Sofia: Fabian was the connection to the friends; Saturday donuts are really his brainchild, so I wasn't involved in that process at all, just the production. But there was one where we bought latkes. It was like a kimchi latke donut, which, just for me, was so dry and strange. That was the weirdest one for me.

Aaron: Has there ever been anything that you're making, whether for like yourself or somewhere else, where you were looking down and you were like, oh no…

Sofia: Yes, of course!

Aaron: And how does that feel? Because I've definitely written things where I felt that way and was like this is bad news guys…

Sofia: It feels bad! I've honestly never had a crazy accident. Like, I've never like cut myself, and I've never messed up that bad where I didn't have something to show for whatever I was supposed to, But like I definitely have made something that’s not how I wanted with no time to redo it. So you just have to serve it, which, yeah, feels bad. But I think what I've learned is, and I think this is true for probably most people, but especially for me, is that I'm my harshest critic, and a lot of times when I think something is really bad, it's honestly, pretty fine to maybe even good.

Aaron: Going off on your own, you’re having to sort of deal with you being the only person [that you work with], right? And with you being the harshest critic, how do you push that to the back and just charge forward when you have that feeling of, “I'm not good enough to start this on my own.” That negative self-talk, how do you put that aside to be like, “You know what, I can do this.”

Sofia: Well, actually, it's weird. I've never had that problem. I really trust myself and I feel very capable just because I've been doing this every day for so long. So I really feel like I can make anything and make it good. For me, it’s more time management and organization. It's the logistics behind it and sourcing. I feel like the freelance has been interesting because I just noticed I have to allot myself a certain amount of time and if I don't then like I'll feel rushed. That's when I start to do things I’m like, “Oh, I wish I didn't do it this way or blah blah blah blah blah.”

Aaron: People who can do that I'm so Jealous of. I definitely think logistics for creatives is the hardest thing to think about. Watching Kenny [Borden] do it live for the Be Home for Dinner stuff with Nico [Lopez-Alegria] is Incredible. I was like you guys are so locked in, you're talking about food costs! So you should definitely talk to her. I think she would be a great, great resource.

Sofia: That's the part that people forget about restaurants— all the computer work and the Excel spreadsheets. I'm so good at Excel now! It's so wild. You won't be making any money if you don't track your costing.

Sofia: That's the reality of it. My favorite part about Swans — always looking at it from a branding and writing perspective — is the little tagline that you have: Every day is a treat. What is your favorite little treat to eat? We'll say make AND eat.

Sofia: Ooooo, okay. I mean, it's funny. I still like dessert. I still obviously will have a treat. Yeah, but definitely less so now. Which I think is just a part of making your hobbies your job. Sometimes I just get sick of sweets.

Aaron: Well, I don't even think treat has to be sweet necessarily!

Sofia: It can be savory!!!

Aaron: Now you're boxing yourself in!

Sofia: A treat is anything.

Sofia: Um, okay, I'm just gonna say maybe a plain croissant. Because that's something I never wanna make for myself. But I'll always appreciate it when it's good. Like I'm never gonna make a croissant at home. I just wanna buy it from a place that makes a good one.

Aaron: And then to make? What's your favorite one to make since you're anti-making croissants?

Sofia: I'm not anti, I'm just like, I did so much of it, I'm never gonna do it again. Yeah. That's a good question. I've been really into ice cream lately.

Aaron: Any standout flavors that you've made?

Sofia: I made one with lime zest that was honestly so tasty. It was a coconut lime zest sundae. Coconut I always like. I did a root beer one that was really good.

Aaron: That's a Midwestern roots showing.

Sofia: Yeah. I just love ice cream. I did one with fresh lavender, which I don't really like floral desserts like that. But when you use fresh, it's so good. It almost tastes like cream cheese, in a way.

Aaron: Oh, I love fresh ice cream. I borderline have been thinking about asking for an ice cream maker for the last several holidays.

Sofia: Haha I have one. I honestly never use it.

Aaron: She said, “I'm making that shit by hand!” And then my last question, are you familiar with death row meals? Do you know what they are?

Sofia: Like the YouTube?

Aaron: When you're on death row, you have to get whatever you want.

Sofia: Oh my god. That is such a good question. I guess Claire will ask all the time, like, what are your three desert island meals? Oh my God. So I have a somewhat answer, but it always changes, but I guess right now. Well, okay, I only started eating fish a year ago, so I've been on a huge fish kick, which is random.

Aaron: Great for a deserted island, you know.

Sofia: I know when I'm like, “I want sashimi on a deserted island.” But maybe my death row meal would be, okay, there's got to be a root beer float because that's like my all-time favorite dessert.

Aaron: Okay, hell yeah.

Sofia: There's definitely a Chirashi bowl, rice and sashimi. Um, I don't know if there's anything else. That's like kind of a gross combo.

Aaron: That is the most girl-dinner death row meal I've ever heard in my life. You're like a little root beer float, a little sashimi, maybe a rice bowl. It's like when you're road-tripping, and somebody wants to stop at Sweetgreen, and somebody else is like, I want to stop at A& W. And you just make some vile combination.

Sofia: You're like, why not both?

Aaron: But it sounds amazing. And we often talk about this as like, I guess, you know, who cares about a tummy ache if you're going out?

Sofia: Maybe there's like some chip, like a potato, classic potato chip. And if I'm dying, like I want some caviar and sour cream.

Aaron: Ooh. Okay. I'm loving this vibe.

Sofia: It's like New Year's, but it's in Japan, maybe. We're doing all across the world for this.

Aaron: Well, it was lovely speaking to you. Just plug, how can people pay you money for your services then? How do they get in contact with you? Where should they follow you?

Sofia: On Instagram for keeping up with when I do pop-ups and stuff because that's how announce it. Which is @Swans.NYC or I guess just my email for events and anything private, which is just Sofswanson@gmail.com.

Aaron: I can't believe you were able to secure the bag on the Sof Swanson email.

Sofia: Well, what's embarrassing is that I have an email that's Sofia Swanson and I have an Instagram that's Sofia Swanson, but both of the passwords, I don't know. So they're just out there somewhere, and I own them, but I can't log-in.

Aaron: So this is a call, if anybody reading that works at Google or Meta…

Sofia: Please email me back. Please.

Aaron: We need your help.